This is the transcript of this episode:

Mark Shriner [00:00]:
Welcome to the grow fast podcast where we talk with leading sales, marketing and personal growth experts about how companies can accelerate sales, optimize marketing and grow their businesses fast. Let's go hey Pat how are you doing great.

Pat Helmers [00:17]:
Can't come possum.

Mark Shriner [00:19]:
First off, I want to thank you for coming on the grow fast podcast. We it's early days for us and to get somebody with your experience, both in sales and podcasting to come on as a guest is a real honor. You know, before we kick things off, I was I was doing a little research, the sales babble podcast that you host has recorded over 500 episodes. That is amazing.

Pat Helmers [00:42]:
I know. It blows me away. When

Mark Shriner [00:47]:
did you start like in the 80s when there was no internet or podcasting? No.

Pat Helmers [00:51]:
You know, well, I'm thinking actually, I think I started 10 years ago, next month, in March.

Mark Shriner [00:57]:
That's awesome. I totally respect because you got out ahead of the curve on this. Just out of curiosity, this was like, I was late, really? So you know what I mean, I was Rogen on the on the radar, then?

Pat Helmers [01:13]:
You know, not to that degree then but but I think some I know, I had been listening to a podcast on golf for about five years. They had started sometime 2006 2007. And people have been podcasting for quite for quite some time. And I felt like am I'm late. I'm late. I'm late.

Mark Shriner [01:35]:
Well, you've done an amazing job. It looked at listen notes, and they rank a sales Bible in the top 1.5% of all podcasts globally, which is awesome. And I know that you've also done like the cannabis advocate podcast. And then you have your own media company where you advise Small, Medium Businesses in terms of podcasting and other, you know, kind of promotional and sales and marketing strategies. Want to talk about all that. But before we do that, I'd like to talk about the book that you're working on the Tao of sales Babel. What what is that?

Pat Helmers [02:11]:
Well, I probably listeners don't know much about this. But I'm a big proponent for the philosophy called Taoism. And it's based on a book that a guy named Lao Tzu wrote 2500 years ago, we're talking 500 years before Christ around, you know, even maybe older than Socrates. And it's a philosophy that talks about it's fundamental in this notion of Wu Wei actionless, action or frictionless action. It's kind of how to live your life without overly pushing stuff, but kind of allowing things to happen. And eventually, without necessarily a lot of work, good things just happen. So it's not it's about being kind of awake and present to how things go. I know it sounds kind of complex, confusing, but probably people have heard the quote, like, you know, the journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step. It's that guy, the guy, the guy who wrote that said that wrote that book.

Mark Shriner [03:11]:
It's interesting, because I actually lived in Asia, off and on for 20 something years, including in Taiwan, and Japan and Korea. And I have read some books on Taoism. And I remember one example was, you know, there's a butcher who goes in, and they're trying to work the meat, and it's just just everything's getting all chopped up. But another one who kind of understands to let things flow and the natural course just goes through it, everything flows smoothly, and the meat just kind of comes right off the boat, kind of a graphic example. But I think the points there,

Pat Helmers [03:43]:
that's a good one. Another one's kind of like, I want to, I want to travel to that island over there. I could paddle all the way. Right, in a straight line there. But I could also put us a sale up. And although I might go to I mean, tacking and jibing and going back and forth and back and forth, but I could probably get I can get there quicker, with less work. Yeah, that's a lot of people think in sales, that it's really about grinding or 10. Excellent. You hear this, right, you just need to work harder, necessarily. You just need to be you need to think smarter, you need to work smarter, you need to allow the sale to happen as opposed to forcing it to happen.

Mark Shriner [04:25]:
But I want to talk about how you apply that to specific examples. But I want to stay on down for just one more second in Japan and Korea. It's pronounced dough, and probably most people have heard it in terms of like Taekwondo, hapkido in Japan, Aikido, judo, and the way of the warrior is called Budo. So the dough is the way and and you know, but that's kind of like martial situations martial combat martial arts. But it's also they're very strong believers in there's a right way to do Things I mean, if you think about judo, it's all about if somebody pushes you, you don't push against them, you pull them, right, you use their energy. So let's go back to the context of sales. Give me an example how you would use Tao or doe, in a sales situation.

Pat Helmers [05:17]:
Yeah, actually got a few. Maybe I can share a few quotes from louts. cloudsuite. Lee's like, this is the classic one. He said, water seems so soft, weak yielding, it easily overcomes the hard and strong. So if you think about like, the Grand Canyon, yeah, you know, it's easy to put your hand in a bucket of water and pull it out, you know, we wash ourselves with that water soft, right? But given time, and continual effort, it carved this, this this huge canyon through in sales. We know this to be true that the average salesperson follows up a couple times before they give up on a deal, right? But studies have shown you'd have to try at least eight more times. That's how many times it takes when people are like, well, I don't want to bother people. I don't want to be annoying. You know, most of the emails you send go to spam, a lot of the voicemails don't even get delivered that day, that moment. LinkedIn messages, right, you DM people, people log in once or twice, you know, once a week or a couple times a month. They're just not seeing this stuff. You have to keep at it. You have to be persistent. And you need to be like water.

Mark Shriner [06:38]:
That I mean, I have seen Bruce Lee say that you like water. Right? But I've never heard a sales trainer say that. And that is awesome.

Pat Helmers [06:48]:
It's got this actually, I've read I've read his book. It's actually very good.

Mark Shriner [06:53]:
Yeah, I mean, so But your point is, is just be persistent. You don't have to be overly forceful. You don't have to, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day, you don't have to build that canyon or dig that canyon a day. Just be persistent. And keep going. I think another thing that you said there is, you shouldn't make assumptions, because oh, they didn't answer you know, so I'm just gonna give up, I'm gonna throw in the towel. Maybe talk a little bit about that. Because I think that affects us in all aspects of our lives making assumptions, because something happens, or doesn't have I

Pat Helmers [07:27]:
mean, I mean, there's this, there's this notion here, there's a quote, there's a quote, he's got that to realize that you do not understand is virtue, not to realize that you do not understand is a defect. So lots of times we think we know what's going on in the, in the sellers mind, we know what's best for them. We know that you, if you buy this thing, it's totally going to work for you. But you know, that's like hubris. That's just making assumptions. And, you know, whenever you assume it makes an ass assumption that the sentence is going to finish some way, but it doesn't. Right.

Mark Shriner [08:06]:
I was just making that assumption. I thought you were gonna take it another direction. But

Pat Helmers [08:12]:
that's, that's how that, you know, in reality, the best way that you can know how to help somebody, it's just ask a genuine, authentic, open ended question and listen. They'll tell you whether or not you're a good fit for them or not, if you ask, but to assume everybody you talk to is a perfect fit for that. I don't know how many times I've gotten but buttonholed in networking meetings. And people just start pitching their crap on you. And they're not qualified mean, at all. They've not asked an open ended question do is this a problem you have? Is this the desire that you're that you want to experience?

Mark Shriner [08:53]:
Now, can you give us some examples of of some of your favorite open ended questions?

Pat Helmers [09:00]:
I was talking to one of my clients the other day, and they were experiencing this issue. You guys are in the same industry? Have you experienced that?

Mark Shriner [09:12]:
Yep. I like that. Oh, really? Oh,

Pat Helmers [09:15]:
wow. And how does that impact your business? Oh, really? Oh, that's gotta suck. What else? Well, I love that one. What else? Just keep going just keep asking this. And next thing you know, I tell you what, if you get some people going like this, they can go for 15 minutes. And you don't watch a single thing you just ask, ask ask.

Mark Shriner [09:39]:
I've seen the same thing. Time and time again. If you ask people, you know, what are your biggest challenges these days? And then and then they'll tell you and then you just drill down on those and keep going. Or you know, there's there's some kind of things that could be kind of hokey, but they still work. So hey, you know if you can wave a magic wand, and have the perfect suit Shouldn't it be six months? What would that look like? It just get them talking, you know?

Pat Helmers [10:06]:
The, you know, where a lot of salespeople screw up on this, they like, Oh, I know that I listened to Pat podcast, he said to do that. So I did that. And they said, and they say something about Yeah, you know, I got this issue with revenue. And immediately a salesperson goes, Oh, I know how to fix revenue, and they start pitching on that, as opposed to, well, what else? Well, what else? What else you because you want to kind of get this long list of stuff. Because when you get that long list of issues, that they have pains and desires, a lot of people like to focus on pain, the lots of times its aspirations people, there's this happily ever after they want their where they see their business in five years. That's just as important to you kind of get this whole list, and then you can walk through, and they're going to be curious. They're saying, Well, you've been talking a lot here, Pat. You think you can help me? They immediately feel like you can help just without asking the questions. And you just walk through that list and go, Well, yeah, you said you had this problem, we can help you there. You said you had this issue. We can help you there too. You said you have this. And we don't do that.

Mark Shriner [11:12]:
That's so that's, that's important to

Pat Helmers [11:15]:
honest. Right. Absolutely.

Mark Shriner [11:17]:
The other thing that I think you're accomplishing in I'm sure this is by intent is by asking questions, and listening intently. And then asking follow up questions or clarifying questions, is you're demonstrating that you are sincerely interested. And that's building rapport and empathy, or you're demonstrating empathy. Because you know, everybody, when we enter a conversation with a salesperson, everybody's guard kind of comes up, right? And if they jump in, I was on a call recently, where exactly what you described, we were doing a discovery with the customer, the customer said one thing, and immediately somebody else on our team jumped in said, Oh, we can do that. Let me tell you how we do that. Like slow down. So

Pat Helmers [12:10]:
here's a quote, it goes up, he who talks more is sooner exhausted?

Mark Shriner [12:15]:
What are the Do you have your chapter outlines? What are the different chapters that you're going to be, you know, what would they be focusing on, you

Pat Helmers [12:22]:
know, their, you know, cold calling, follow up. Sideways deals. Sideways deals are something people bump into all the time you think you got to figure it out, and then all of a sudden, somebody throws a monkey wrench into the machine. And, you know, the CFO comes in, says we can't afford that, or the person that who you've been talking to gets fired. Now you got to restart the whole thing. And that greatly troubles people, I think I have one. Here, here's one, here's one I like I like about this. It goes, if you realize that all things change, there's nothing you will try to hold on to, if you're not afraid of dying, there's nothing you cannot achieve. If you're not afraid of dying, there's nothing you can achieve. We need to fully embrace the idea that every lead you have, in every qualified opportunity you have is not going to close, they're going to die, most of them are going to die, expect them to die. But if we just allow things to happen, allow some some are going to close. But to get get attached to any one of these deals, that just a waste of energy, we have to be okay with, we put our time in, we work the deals, we follow it, follow up 810 times. And if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And the trick is, is that you just you just you just allow it to naturally happen.

Mark Shriner [13:59]:
I think that detachment is so important because if you are, you know, so emotionally attached to the viability of any specific deal, you're you're going to be on an emotional roller coaster. You need to just say, Hey, I'm doing my best. And I can pat myself on the back because I did my best. But now the balls in their court. And really I mean, come on, man. I mean, human beings are the most complex thing in the known universe. And you're in typically in a b2b environment you're selling but you're selling not just to one person, but there's multiple people involved. There's competition involved. There's market dynamics, there's internal finances. How much can that can you can can you control? What can you actually you control?

Pat Helmers [14:41]:
We know what great sales looks like, from a buyer's point of view. I mean, how many times have you gone shopping for something? And as soon as you see it, you're like, Oh, I think this could work. I think this could fit for me, you know, and, oh, I can maybe go this way. I made it that way. You know, I come for b2b sales. So you're working with a team of people, right? So collectively, they got to make a decision. And they all got their own agendas. And some of them are worried about losing their jobs, and they are making the company better. You know, so you're kind of like a ring master, and you're kind of like trying to get them all too. Eventually, sometimes there gets to be a point where they're looking at this and they start talking to each other into it, you see this thing and you start talking yourself into it, like, I can see how this fits, I could see myself driving this, I could see myself living him here, I could see myself doing this in the salespersons not doing anything other than answering the questions, facilitating it. That masterful sales, if you can get yourself in a situation and you can, and this can be done, where the people sell themselves. That's ideal. laughs who's got this like, quote that says something along the lines of that great leadership is when the job is done. The people say, We did it. That sounds good. It wasn't because of some strong man boss making this happen. The strong man boss in the background is like, well, you know, you guys did a great job, you did a great job. You know, the people who bought it, we put this in the context of selling, that team could be your customers, and your customers are happy with the decision they made. They're, they're proud of the decision they made, we work really hard. Of course, the seller knows that. This would never happen if I hadn't reached out to them this month, but they're they're happy to quietly go home and, you know, cash their commission check.

Mark Shriner [16:37]:
What about this, you know, I'm an advocate that every time you touch base with a customer, or you have any kind of any kind of contact, you should be attempting to move the sales process forward. Because at the end of the day, you do want to get to the close right now, you know, according to what you're talking about, you definitely don't want to push too hard, though, right? But you do want to move things forward. So how do you balance the the, the need to kind of move things forward with the need not to be pushy?

Pat Helmers [17:10]:
I think yeah, this is you should always be advancing the sale. And invariably, if you're asking open ended questions, they're going to, there's probably things that you can't follow up with, there's probably things you don't know right off the top of your head, in the trick is to make sure you just advance the sales to schedule the next meeting. Just to just to do that, just to keep talking to them, or saying, I can't answer that right. Now. Let me get back to you. Let me write that down. I'll tell you, I'll follow up with you in three days. And I think I can follow up like, you know, what's your calendar look like next week, you think we can set up a time to follow up with this? It just just as simple as that. You're not closing them? You're not saying what's it gonna take for you to drive this car off the lot tonight?

Mark Shriner [18:00]:
Yeah, it's gonna take the hand of God coming down. I hate that one. I hate that. Like, come on, Mark, come on, Mark, just just tell me your number. And I'll

Pat Helmers [18:09]:
just just give me a number. I believe you do that, like, I told you my number A week ago,

Mark Shriner [18:15]:
yeah, I'll

Pat Helmers [18:15]:
buy this car for this much. Because I can't do that. Okay, then we're done.

Mark Shriner [18:21]:
It's funny with cars, my last three car purchases, I've negotiated everything before showing up to the dealer. I've called them and said, This is my price. If you can do this, I'll come down, because otherwise you go down there. And then they make you wait for two hours while they talk with their manager, or they talk with their manager. And I'm just like, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna metal hold off.

Pat Helmers [18:43]:
We shouldn't pick on car sales, because it's, it's really the Internet has really changed it. Yeah, I mean, we know what vehicles are work, and you can look it up and see where everybody's selling same car for the same price, you know?

Mark Shriner [18:57]:
Yeah, the guys that I have guys and gals that I've had really good experiences with, though, even in the context of selling cars have brought a lot of value to the conversation, in terms of, Hey, Mark, you know, I know you're looking at this model, let me let me just show you this other model here and explain to you, you know, because what based upon what you're telling me, this might be it makes more sense. And as long as they're not trying to just upsell me for the sake of upselling me, but they're actually understanding what my needs are. Or it could be you know, hey, in terms of financing, maybe you'd want to look at this program versus that program and as long as they're really bringing value that there are opportunities there I think to differentiate themselves. You in terms of the the name of the book is the dow of sales Babel. So are these basically a compilations of from from your previous podcasts? Is that was that where you're gonna go?

Pat Helmers [19:48]:
Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question. Actually. The way it all kind of worked was I started a blog post probably 12 years ago of Taking Lao Tzus work and converting it into sales. And I really did that for like a year and a half. And then I kind of got done. And I didn't know what to go with it, I just kind of set it aside. But two years ago, I decided, You know what, I should really turn this into a book. I should really, I should really, like, make this something kind of my opus for my for my life. This is this is how I see selling because I've approached selling from this point of view, from the beginning, ever since I first started started studying Taoism. So I decided with the podcast, actually, to stop interviewing people, I've interviewed many people on the podcast. And say, I was just going to write a chapter in the book, and I would just, that's what that would be my weekly episode. So I've actually used the podcast as a mechanism, you know, to, to keep me moving forward on the book, a commit, you know, commit myself to it. And that has really, really worked out. So I would like, do a podcast episode. And then once I kind of got to, like, well liked it, then I would like maybe rewrite it, and I'm in a writers group, and then they would review it. And then I would get input from them. And then that would go into the book. And the Writers Group has helped me immensely. I've learned truly improved my writing skills. And in the podcast, has slowly has slowly I've slowly been able to, to map this all out. It's been very, very enjoyable, much slower than I than I ever thought.

Mark Shriner [21:34]:
Well, most of my podcasts, podcasts have always had guests. And for me, that's easy, because it's just having a conversation just like we're doing right now. Right? Recently, I've started to do book reviews, part of his similar rationale, it was like, I want to be forced to read a couple books a month on the topic of sales, personal development, and so on. And then And then by kind of preparing for a podcast on my own, I really have to kind of reflect on the material, and it helps to kind of Edify what I've learned and then sometimes apply it. But I gotta say it for me at this point, it's a lot more work. Because if when you have a guest, you can just have a conversation. So is was it challenging for you to start podcasting, just kind of on your own and talking about these different?

Pat Helmers [22:19]:
Yeah, it's a lot of work. But you've probably found this mark to be true. In your studies, when you reach doesn't that help and helps build your brand better? You know, so when you have a guest, the guest is the person that's highlighted, you know, their names on the top of the title. But people want to see that you are an experienced sales expert. You're somebody that people want to work with. And I would think that you're doing book reviews and getting your spin on it, whether you agree or not agree with it. It's gotta be interesting. And then people can see I can identify with Mark, I want to hire mark. Right.

Mark Shriner [22:55]:
Interesting. Yeah, no, I guess. I mean, you know, for full transparency. The The idea with the grow fast podcast is just to provide value to our community. Because, you know, we're supported by a b2b SaaS platform and with your RFP, so we just want to in our target market is sales professionals and sales executives. But I think the personal branding thing, I haven't actually thought about that, but I'll let you know, I'll let you know. So let's let's kind of go full circle, which is a Dallas thing, by the way. And come back to before we talked about podcast, you mentioned that you started studying Taoism maybe 10 plus years ago, how did that happen?

Pat Helmers [23:35]:
Oh, maybe 2030 years ago? Yeah. A friend of mine started a bookstore use bookstore. And I helped her build the store. You know, I mean, like, literally, I was putting books on shelves had anything to do with the business. I was, I would just muscle it all my work. She said, You've been awesome. You should take a book you should pick a book up. And, and I and I pulled the book off and I jot some things book with Jane English. I picked her book up, I picked that book up and I opened it up and you want to see it? Sure. I still have it. And Jeff was saying was very interesting guy. And he had translate us Chinese. He translated it into English. And I started reading it I'm like, this is all gobbledygook. I don't get it. This makes no sense. And I set it aside for 10 years. And then about I remember early in the 90s I was reading The Wall Street Journal and there was an article that said it was the story that we told before that that the greatest leaders when the job was done, the team says we did it. And I was like I was I was in management. And I was like this is the kind of boss I want to be and that's the net net that kind of got me on the line. And then when I'm I went from technology to sales I my backgrounds actually software engineer During, and then I went to what were first startup. And I kind of taught myself sales and became a sales manager, VP of sales. I started digging back into this and going, Oh, this is the right way to sell. I had done some pushy sales. It was awful. It was an awful experience. It just didn't make sense. And I'll try to make people buy stuff trying to talk people into buying stuff. I'm, I made a lot of mistakes early on.

Mark Shriner [25:27]:
I still blush at there's, I there's three incidents that I can very vividly remember where I was pushy. I put my interest ahead of the customers, I was selling financial services. And I still this is 20 years ago, but I still blush about it, I think about it, where I put my interest, and they knew it. And the deal went sideways. And I just, you know, I learned I learned from it, you know, it was like I thought I was because I had mentors. And they would say, hey, when you're in this situation, here's what you do, you know, and it would be kind of a manipulative kind of move. And it didn't feel right when I did it. But then when I would skip the reaction, like, you know, two of those people just ghosted me, they were like, you know, we're done. And so

Pat Helmers [26:16]:
then they were teach me teach a goofy stuff, like, you know, like the hard clothes like, well, what would work better? Do you want it in? You want an orange? Or would red be better for you? Like, just make the assumption clothes? Right? Will it be easier for you next Tuesday or next Thursday to meet like, Guy shall mighty Who talks like that? Right? Why not treat everybody like you're there your cousin? Why not just be human and nice to people and say, what would work for you? You know, what? If it doesn't work for you, they're probably not qualified.

Mark Shriner [26:53]:
Right? Or take a step back and say maybe I haven't given them the right information, you know, or haven't asked the right questions. Right. So, yeah, so Okay, so you started studying, and then you apply the principles. I'm curious, though, in a leadership role, where you want your team to say they developed the solution? Because, I mean, obviously, then they have buy in, and they're going to be more energized and excited about the, the decision and the outcome because they feel fully invested in it. How did you manage that? I mean, what kind of structure or you know, what kind of conversations would you have?

Pat Helmers [27:28]:
You know, I never ever. I never talked a lot about Taoism, with people on my sales teams. But I lived it. I just I didn't see the point at the time of really teaching them ancient Chinese philosophy. It wasn't until I started podcasting. Did I did that I really start to in fact, I remember when I was blogging on this stuff, I already told anybody I was doing it. I didn't tell my people I was doing it, you know, well, one or two would be interested in what does that blog that you work on? And I would send it to I really I told the people that I work with the people I consult with today. They hear this stuff all the time. Did I answer your question? I don't know if Yeah, definitely.

Mark Shriner [28:29]:
Definitely. Let me let me. Let's jump over to the podcasts situation. A lot of people say, I don't know if it was you told me this story. Somebody told me story. Basically, it was, you know, it used to be, you'd go into a restaurant and say have a podcast and be like, what's a podcast? And now you go into a restaurant and you ask who doesn't have a podcast? And everybody raise? I've got one I got one. So or something along those lines? Is it Is there still space? There's there's still opportunities out there?

Pat Helmers [28:58]:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. There's just so many. There's just so many niches of podcasts who go into the idea that you're going to have a podcast that rival Joe Rogan's that's silly in this day and age that that that time has come and gone

Mark Shriner [29:14]:
versus our split bubble, Pat, geez. Okay, I'm gonna go now.

Pat Helmers [29:24]:
But you can totally own a niche. You can totally be the go to the go to guy or gal for set area. With a podcast and the podcast, it doesn't mean you're gonna be running ads on your podcast and making buku bucks. That's not what that podcast is about. But it does podcasting does create an opportunity for you to if you want to talk to anybody you want in an industry because people are honored to be on a podcast. Honestly, Mark, I'm honored that you that you want me to be on this podcast. I mean, there's a lot of other people, probably better people than me smarter people and more, more fluid.

Mark Shriner [30:07]:
You know, I think we all bring something unique to the table

Pat Helmers [30:10]:
you've gotta had. So thank you for doing this. Well, the same thing is true in your industry, you know, you can talk to any executive who wouldn't take you, you couldn't cold call you, you wouldn't be able to get to them somehow or other, but you ask them to, you know, to talk about something that they care about? That would be great, right? I got a client, who does property management software. So they don't have a podcast on property management software. They have a podcast on property management. So they talk to property management experts, people who've done this, in what does that create, that creates an audience of prospects. Every guest is a prospect. It's a chance for you to get to know somebody and talk to them and ask them about their lives and how their story and their journey their hero's journey, right? How they got to where they are. And then at the end of the interview, it's they're gonna invariably say, Well, what exactly do you do? And you say, Yeah, we, we sell property management software, it's funny, you bring that up, because I've been unhappy with what we have, or I've been thinking about, or I'm buying. That's a way that that's a way of building a network into an especially if you're a startup, or if you've got a new product that you're rolling out in the market, or in a marketplace that you're not experienced with me. I mean, that this kind of growth is healthy for businesses, the business is not growing is dying. Let me because we see this in nature. You constantly have to be evolving constantly gotta be changing. There's something about what you're doing is you don't know anything about a podcast can help you become informed.

Mark Shriner [31:52]:
Totally agree with you. I, you know, in 2017, I was in the cybersecurity space I moved in there, it was relatively new. I started a podcast and ran it for four and a half years, I think recorded 161 episodes. Guess what I learned a lot about cybersecurity. And it's a mile wide, and it's a mile deep, and it's so many different areas. And in the beginning, I was terrified because I was like, Oh God, I'm talking to these people. And I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. And I learned I learned so much. And I made a lot of those connections that you're talking about. And it was really, really rewarding. This podcast is much I feel much more at home starting this because I've you know, I've been in sales and marketing business development my whole life. I've written a couple books on sales. And I'm and I'm still very much passionate about it, because I think it is, I mean, come on. We're matchmakers. We help companies solve problems, and there's nothing for me, nothing more rewarding than working with somebody and helping them solve a problem. And then maintaining that kind of that business and professional relationship. It's a very rewarding experience if done, right.

Pat Helmers [32:58]:
Yeah. I'm podcasting has been one of the probably the most fun creative things I've done in my whole life. I'm so I'm so fortunate, I bumped into it. I genuinely enjoyed it. And it's been fun helping other people do the same thing in their industry. That's been just, it's been very gratifying work.

Mark Shriner [33:25]:
done if you know, Bill Caskey, he does the event selling podcast. He was talking about he some of his consulting clients, you know, he advises them do something very, very niche, just provide value provide information. And he gave several examples of how, you know, even six months in, they were winning so much more business because they were providing value to an audience, the audience was growing and that people were reaching out to them. So back to exactly what you were saying. Let's, let's assume that

Pat Helmers [33:54]:
You don't need a big audience. You just need the right audience. The right FIDE buyer, you know, a qualified prospect. If they're listening to your little Nishi podcast, they're qualified.

Mark Shriner [34:08]:
That's awesome. Okay, let's assume that you're small, medium sized business and you're thinking about a podcast. What are some of the the lessons learned or most important aspects that they need to get right.

Pat Helmers [34:26]:
So some of the things that I see that podcasters do wrong is they talk too much. In these interviews, they like to show themselves they'd like to show off what they know because they want to build their brand, but he's just plain rude to invite somebody to come in. And you're doing 50% of those of the talking.

Mark Shriner [34:45]:
Not feeling guilty.

Pat Helmers [34:50]:
This is very, this has been really great. I think.

Mark Shriner [34:54]:
It's good. You get me in the afternoon. It's my afternoon. It'd be because I'm over in Europe, but But if you got me in the morning when I'm when I'm highly caffeinated, I just don't shut up. So.

Pat Helmers [35:09]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm doing all the chit chatting, I'm not used to actually doing all the chit chatting. When it comes

Mark Shriner [35:19]:
time reverse oil here, you know,

Pat Helmers [35:21]:
five or six questions. Let me say that these are the five or six questions I always like to ask when I'm interviewing somebody is like, you know, how did you get here? You know, there's a lot of things you could have done with your life? Why this? What surprised you, you know, were the challenges that you've bumped into? We're, you know, what do you regret? You know, what's really worked? Could you give us an example, a heart example of like, a word that worked? You know, the results of some incidents or some situation? What are your aspirations? Where do you see yourself in five years? I mean, these are the these questions work for everybody, when it comes to an interview based podcast.

Mark Shriner [36:00]:
I think that's great suggestions. So where are you going to go from here? If you're going to release your book, what's what's your what's your plan,

Pat Helmers [36:11]:
but for this book, my plan is to promote this book is to do what we're doing here. And in fact, what I would like to do is, is take interviews like this and actually put them on my podcast, which does two things. It makes it easy for me to put out an episode because I have to do any work. also introduces my audience to your audience, which is, which is really what I want to do. I want people to listen to your podcast, there's plenty of room for bots, podcasts, for some people and some businesses, Mark, your podcast might be a better fit than my podcast. I believe there's plenty for everybody, there's plenty. There's, there's no reason for me to be weird about this. So that's that. That's my intent just to go on to a tour of getting on other people's podcasts. I've interviewed an awful lot of people, a lot of people kind of owe me. And they're all superduper. Nice. So that, that that's my intention to promote that book. I actually been thinking about what's my next book, that's, I, I'm not sure what that books gonna be. But But what I'm doing here could be, has taught me an awful lot. And it's been very, I love being creative. I love constantly growing and changing. And

Mark Shriner [37:34]:
yeah, I guess, when will you be releasing the book? I don't know. No pressure.

Pat Helmers [37:40]:
No pressure, Benny. I'm hoping I'm hoping by the end of the year. Okay,

Mark Shriner [37:45]:
awesome. Well, well, let me know. Because we'll definitely, you know, put links up and all that and do some excerpts.

Pat Helmers [37:53]:
Writing a book, Mark, what's that? You've written a book that you've written a book, right?

Mark Shriner [37:57]:
I've written two books on sales. One is the inside game, how to become a top performing salesperson and enjoy every step of the way. Because and the premise is there, there are kind of two basic components of sales, there's the external behaviors that we do, like, cold calling, setting the agenda, running a meeting, you know, asking questions, but then you know, building trust, but then there are internal aspects of selling, which are, you know, my attitude, and the games that in the emotions that we play, you know, working from a position of scarcity, which doesn't feel good, oh, my God, oh, we have one call today, only one meeting today, versus a position of plenty where I've got 50 people to call and I've got five meetings. And at that point, I don't even care how any of those meetings, you know, end up because I've got so much more, right. So from my experience, if you're going to be in sales, it can be a real emotional roller coaster, you got to get your mind right. And it goes back to a lot of things that you started off the podcast talking about is just acceptance, not trying to force things, you know, you call somebody you can't make somebody buy if they don't want to buy so don't even try. You know, when you call somebody, they're either gonna say yes, no, or maybe. And you should be happy with the No, because if they say no, never get it off your plate, Yay, I'm done with that one. If they say yes, that's a win. And if they say Maybe that's your future goals, because then you say, Well, okay, you know, I appreciate what you're saying, Would it be okay, if I touch base with you every month or so and share some information when it comes up? You're like, yes. So you've planted seeds, right? So, you know, so but a lot of people they wear their emotions on their sleeve. And if you're in sales, you can't do that. You can't shoot from the hip. You got to kind of have a plan, both for that's my premise is what you're doing your activities, but also, what's going on in your noggin.

Pat Helmers [39:43]:
What advice do you have for me for writing a book?

Mark Shriner [39:49]:
I kept I won't give advice, but I would say some of the most important lessons are set some time aside every day to just focus on the book. Okay. and really just do not cheat yourself or the book out of that time. And I set my heard recently, I am listening to Tim Ferriss tool of the Titans where he interviews, he's doing something similar, where he's interviewed some of the, you know, the most successful people in the world across all different types of industries. And he's compiled down the highlights and the lessons learned from those interviews. People like Arnold Schwarzenegger, and you know, Dave Rubin, and just I'm drawing a blank, but like, literally, amazingly, successful people. And one of the writers on there said, Look, we all get writer's block, it's not writer's block, it's just we have days where we're not as productive, but doesn't matter, you shouldn't put it off. Just tell yourself, I'm going to do a minimum of two crappy pages a day. Anybody can write two crappy pages, right? Don't put the pressure on that. It's got to be, you know, Pulitzer Prize winning stuff here. Just get in the habit. And I'm sorry, you asked me a question. So now I got my guest hat on. But, uh, I thought it was Somerset mom, the he said something like, that somebody asked him like, you know, when does? How much How does inspiration play in your writing process, and he goes, Oh, it's really important. But inspiration strikes from 10 o'clock AM to 2pm every day. The point is, he sits down in the chair and just does the work, right. Jerry Seinfeld writes a joke every single day, doesn't care if it's a good joke, or a bad joke.

Pat Helmers [41:31]:
He just writes 10 a day. Okay, that could be the thinking, right? 10 a day, and he knows that most of them are gonna be awful. Yeah. And take the pressure off. That's kind of why I started the that's why I converted my podcast from interviewing, because I would be a device for me to force me. Because my podcasts come out. I am very, very, very professional about this 3am Tuesday morning central time that every podcast goes out exactly the same time. So I'm working on a timeline all the time. And that forces me that's forced me to write on this on this book. But I think you have a point where forcing myself to do this once a week is probably not enough. Maybe I need to up my game.

Mark Shriner [42:23]:
You know, everybody's got their own thing. But for me, if I was writing once a week, I would lose some of the rhythm, right? And I find that if I do something at least five days a week, even if it's just for a half hour, it starts to kind of build momentum and snowball the connectivities there otherwise, if I if for me personally, if I spent too many days between something, I have to take some time to kind of remember where I was at and get started again. Other people they can probably do that, you know, so I just for what it's worth. Let me ask you. Where do you look for where do you go to for inspiration, whether it be books, specific authors, sales trainers, or others?

Pat Helmers [43:09]:
I'm an avid reader. I'm an avid reader. I have read so many books that have given me so much inspiration. I don't know. I you know, John Steinbeck's East of Eden I read a year ago. He actually talks about all this stuff. I'm reading Willie Nelson's the dowel Willie Nelson. Wonderful. It's a wonderful book. The man is awesome. Absolutely brilliant. Taking a note there's there's so much influence so many great books. I'm an avid reader. I read a lot. I read every morning when I wake up something inspirational. And reading a lot of Native American spirituality books recently. I'm an I love history. I mean, I read. I read huge volume on Adolf Hitler's biography last last year. There's so much he was an expert at marketing and sales and blow. Yeah. I mean, I mean, for all the wrong reasons. You know, it's big, big fan of ancient Rome. You know, I'm listening to I'm going through Stephen West, philosophize. This podcast, I'm listening to every philosopher is every single episode on all the different philosophers is absolutely, absolutely fascinating. And it all ties back all ties back to the things that, you know, that I've experienced in the past. I read a lot of Zen stuff. I'm a big fan of Alan Watts, his work. He was just absolutely phenomenal. Ernest Hemingway. The star I'll on the way he writes, really touches me the clarity. He

Mark Shriner [45:05]:
was amazing. I think maybe my favorite was For Whom the Bell Tolls. I mean, there's obviously the short stories like old man in the sea and things like that. But

Pat Helmers [45:16]:
yeah, it's just the Bell Tolls is a phenomenal book. Absolutely.

Mark Shriner [45:20]:
Yeah. And nobody has an island. Entire to themselves Island. Yeah, don't ask for whom the bell tolls.

Pat Helmers [45:29]:
And I don't want to get overly into this law. People don't notice that Zen people say this is very zen person. Because from Zen Buddhism, Zen Buddhism is mostly Taoism, with Buddhist meditation thrown in, if you're going to, so when people hear a lot of Zen kind of things, it's usually founded in stuff that Lao Tzu wrote. And quite honestly, Lao Tzu didn't exactly invent all this stuff. He was a librarian. One day somebody asked him, would you write down all the highlights of the things that you read? That's what the doubt a Ching is, it's the highlights of the wisdom of, of China at that time, 2500 years ago. So

Mark Shriner [46:11]:
that's kind of see that what the tools of the Titans is, or another one I like is revolve navickas Almanac, where they just compile all of the lessons learned. Tim Ferriss, from all the people that are interviewed on the podcast, Nevada, does it from all the books that he's read, and he just distills it down into these massive the potent doses of wisdom. But one of the lessons that runs through both of their books, and all the people that they're quoting, or that they've spoke to, is that Leaders are readers. And 90, I haven't heard anybody on there say I don't read. They're all just voracious readers. Absolutely. Yeah. And it, people, if you're not an avid reader, I would encourage you to try reading more. Because what I've found is, it's not just the lesson that you're learning. It's the fact that you start to connect the lessons from this book, to something on this book. And then sometimes that one plus one comes out to be three, and you get to you get inspiration in a whole new way. And it's fun. Apps. Absolutely.

Pat Helmers [47:20]:
If you're not a reader, you know, because everybody's a different kind of learner. I'm an audio learner myself, which is why I like podcasts, and I listen to a lot of great podcast. That's a good way to get started. But not everything that's great to read isn't a podcast. So I read. You had I like reading. I like reading. But my best way that I learned is through this audio. It's just the way my brain is wired.

Mark Shriner [47:49]:
Yeah, and you can do it while you're walking. That's what I love.

Pat Helmers [47:53]:
That's the part. That's the power of podcasting. You can do two things at once.

Mark Shriner [47:58]:
Do you have a book that you go back to time and time again?

Pat Helmers [48:02]:
Yes. The doubt a Ching. There

Mark Shriner [48:07]:
you go. Okay. Now we've gone full circle, which is a very good

Pat Helmers [48:11]:
book. There's a second, your second book. Oh, Marcus Aurelius his book in the meditations. Yeah, it's a great book to read over and over and over again, you can never get the stoics were great. There's elements of stoicism are aligned with Taoism. Yeah. That, that, that that's a great book to read. You can

Mark Shriner [48:33]:
say that because I, you're right. There are so many elements of just acceptance, right? We're all here. We're all here temporarily. We all think what we're doing is super important, but in the grand scheme of things, it's just we're just going to be dust in the wind and just accept it man. And don't get yourself all you know excited about it and be careful with what you desire. It's just tone down the desires. You know, I know you want that Sell Sale. I know you want it. But you're just you're just hurting yourself by desiring it so much, man just accept it. You know, they're either gonna buy or they're not you know.

Pat Helmers [49:13]:
Think the thing what I'm what I'm most excited about right now is that I'd be reading this through Native American spirituality, spirituality, like with the snobby people I read, braiding sweet grass, by Robin wall. Kimmerer. And you come to realize that there's this element of how the Native Americans work is very similar Taoism that there's an interconnectedness with everything in the world. We're all part of everything else. We're not like separate, which is how a lot of Western philosophy thinks that we're, we came from someplace they live here briefly, and then we go someplace else. These people in Dallas feel this way too. We are all interconnected. We are all family, and we're constantly evolving and changing just as the sunrises and sunsets, you know, the Seasons come and the seasons go spring is happening right now slowly, like, there is this this constant kind of wave that we're all a part of in. And if we can understand that and we can ride that, and we can be much more accepting that it's things are going to change, things are going to move. And everything that I talked to and work with has something to do with something else that I have to do. I don't even know what that statement I just said only if that makes any sense. But I hope it gives people a sense of essence of like, what I'm trying to say that there's an interconnect, this chair would fall, if it wasn't for the floor, pushing it up. The floor wouldn't be if there weren't for chairs to sit on it. It's a connection to that, the same is true and we sell. The same is true whenever we're trying to persuade people, it's really not persuasion, it's just like, a conversation of like, maybe I can help you, maybe you can help me maybe collectively, the two of us can help each other something that's mutually beneficial.

Mark Shriner [51:09]:
Mutually beneficial. That's, that's a huge Brian, I just cut more comments. And then we can we can kind of sort of wrap this up. But, you know, what you're talking about there. And this podcast, by the way, is going in a direction that I didn't anticipate, but I'm really enjoying it. I, I feel like connected in the US when I'm out in nature when I go to places like the Grand Canyon, or the Rocky Mountains of the Pacific Ocean, and I look at and I'm in awe of nature. And I feel like I'm part of something much, much bigger than myself. Okay, you are. And then I have a similar experience, but different when I come to Europe, and I you know, I'm going through these towns where the buildings are five, seven, about 100 years old, or 1000 years old. And then I realized, oh my God, how many people have lived in died and lived and died in these villages, and they thought that they're getting that deal was super, super important. And that was 15 generations ago, and I'm going to be just the same. So as important as I think it just drills at home when you see it, right. It's like, and I am not as cognizant of that in America. Because, you know, the house is my neighborhood are all you know, 20 3040 years old. It's just like, well, we've been here for you know, and it's we're always going to be here, but when I'm in Europe, I have that same kind of feeling. When I see nature in America, I see. You just, you know, hits you in the face with Wow, there's been a lot of people here for 1000s of years, and we're going to be just like them pretty soon.

Pat Helmers [52:44]:
Yeah, I get that. I'm going to Normandy in April to help work on some some projects there. The history of that of that beach. That's, yeah, you know, I'll be in Paris for a little while, you know, I'm looking forward to setting a day or two, just in the Louvre. You mean, Paris is a beautiful city has a huge history, you know, Napoleon Napoleon designed. So a lot of that stuff didn't work. But some of the stuff still is here today. But at the same time, I, I hiked the woods that I live in here in Illinois, and I think about the Potawatomi he's the Ojibwe was, you know, the Chippewas you know, that lived here, the fox people's, you know, in, in their spirit. Is it still here? They think it still is they think their ancestors are still here? Because they are they are because we're all interconnected. We're all here. We're all we're all made up of the same molecules and atoms. You know, they're just just constantly changing, converting it just don't get caught it just in a constant cycle change. Hair Cletus, right, the Greek philosopher said the only thing that remains the same as change. So

Mark Shriner [54:17]:
no, I can't wait to see your book. And I, again, especially for that emotional and mental aspect in terms of that part of selling that I talked about. It's I think it's hugely helpful for people to realize you can't force things and it's just emotionally draining to try to do that. But also, it doesn't benefit you with your relationship with customers. So I think there's a huge opportunity for you to share that kind of Outlook with, with sales professionals, all across the states and everywhere. So, hey, Pat, thanks so much. Again, I really appreciate it's early days for the grow fast podcast, but it's been a great conversation and a big honor to have have you on here with

Pat Helmers [55:01]:
Mark I really appreciate you having me visit thank you very very much .

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